Christian Bashing - Enough with the intolerance and hate

So when are you going to end your intolerance and hate of people who are not like you, Steve? What's good for the goose . . .

Again, this blog is South Dakota's most loving blog - no hate here. But I'm guessing you are referring to my relentless intolerance for those who want to kill children and exploit women. In answer to your question, I'm not going to lighten up on there. Christians aren't killing people - we are trying to stop that - it's live and let live over here, Scott.

OK, this is where you reply back- what about the Crusades? What about an abortion doc getting murdered?

Steve,

I think these verses need to be kept in mind (as I'm sure you have):

Matt 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matt 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

John 15:18-19 - 18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

We could go on an on with these types of texts. I am not advocating for Christians to be doormats, but I get a bit nervous with all the talk of our "rights". If we wanted to talk "rights", then the only thing we have a "right" for is going to hell. The foundation of the Gospel is mercy.

We shouldn't be at all surprised when we face these kinds of things and should remember that Jesus told us plainly that it would happen. I think this knowledge will temper the tone and frequency with which we choose to engage the legal authorities.

The book of Acts shows us clearly that when the apostles born persecution, they didn't respond with attempts at legislation, but rather rejoiced in the fact they were being treated like Christ was. Do we have a unique role in American democracy to shape policy? Sure, but I think we would be wise to keep these Biblical pictures in mind as we do.

I love what Piper writes here (http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2003/1239_Taking_the_Swagger_Out_of_Christian_Cultural_Influence/):

"American culture does not belong to Christians, neither in reality nor in Biblical theology. It never has. The present tailspin toward Sodom is not a fall from Christian ownership. “The whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19). It has since the fall, and it will till Christ comes in open triumph. God’s rightful ownership will be manifest in due time. The Lordship of Christ over all creation is being manifest in stages, first the age of groaning, then the age of glory. “We ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies” (Romans 8:23). The exiles are groaning with the whole creation. We are waiting.

But Christian exiles are not passive. We do not smirk at the misery or the merrymaking of immoral culture. We weep. Or we should. This is my main point: being exiles does not mean being cynical. It does not mean being indifferent or uninvolved. The salt of the earth does not mock rotting meat. Where it can, it saves and seasons. And where it can’t, it weeps. And the light of the world does not withdraw, saying “good riddance” to godless darkness. It labors to illuminate. But not dominate.

Being Christian exiles in American culture does not end our influence; it takes the swagger out of it. We don’t get cranky that our country has been taken away. We don’t whine about the triumphs of evil. We are not hardened with anger. We understand. This is not new. This was the way it was in the beginning — Antioch, Corinth, Athens, Rome. The Empire was not just degenerate, it was deadly. For three explosive centuries Christians paid for their Christ-exalting joy with blood. Many still do. More will.

It never occurred to those early exiles that they should rant about the ubiquity of secular humanism. The Imperial words were still ringing in their ears: “You will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved” (Mark 13:13). This was a time for indomitable joy and unwavering ministries of mercy.

Yes, it was a time for influence–as it is now. But not with huffing and puffing as if to reclaim our lost laws. Rather with tears and persuasion and perseverance, knowing that the folly of racism, and the exploitation of the poor, and the de-Godding of education, and the horror of abortion, and the collapse of heterosexual marriage, are the tragic death-tremors of joy, not the victory of the left or the right.

The greatness of Christian exiles is not success but service. Whether we win or lose, we witness to the way of truth and beauty and joy. We don’t own culture, and we don’t rule it. We serve it with brokenhearted joy and longsuffering mercy, for the good of man and the glory of Jesus Christ."

Keep fighting against abortion. I am with you. But let's not be surprised when we face these things and seek to fight for our "rights". Joyfully bearing persecution may be the strongest witness that the world could ever see and more than having favorable legislation (though this is nice), this is what we are called to, being witnesses to the truth of the Gospel (Matt 28, Acts 1, etc). Seems like that how it went down with Jesus. Jesus could have taken down the Roman Empire with the snap of his fingers, but he didn't because there was something greater in mind.

Consider it,

Zach

"Christians aren't killing people"

What planet are you living on? Tell that to the families of innocent Iraqi's who have died because of our bombs.

Scott,

The USA is hardly a Christian nation my friend.

z

Scott - when I invite my friend here to speak sometime I'll be sure to invite you. He thanks America for taking out Saddam — too bad it wasn't earlier though before his whole family and 60,000 Kurds were exterminated. He thanks God for a nation that goes after those who take innocent human life.

What planet are you living on? Tell that to the families of innocent Iraqi's who have died because of our bombs.

I wasn't aware we did that on purpose.

An order of magnitude more Muslims have been killed in Iraq by other Muslims than by our bombs and bullets.

If anything, the rise of radical Islam has held a mirror up to Christianity in general to remind us of our own dark ages. The crusades were part of that, as was the sometimes violent repression of any native religion in europe by the RCC. Then there's the repression of scientific advancement driven by chruch dogma - advancement that could have avoided a lot of deaths. How many wars were fought in europe with religion somewhere as an inspiration?
We've grown (evolved?) out of that over the last 300 years or so, but it will always be a part of our past.

Good stuff Zach - I agree and thanks for spelling it out. I'm not surprised we are vilified and some of it is quite deserved. It is always a challenge to "demolish arguments and strongholds that set themselves up against the knowledge of God" and do so out of the spirit of Jesus. I'd rather speak boldly, and recant and apologize when I cross the line as I have than be timid and silent and let the nation fully slip off its righteous foundation while on our Watch.

You do realize that bible verses don't mean sh't to non-christians? Don't you? Apparently not.

Yep we do realize that Scott. Do you realize that Church Going Dude professes to be a Christian and that all the verses getting put forth here are not comments directed at you?

well said, zach. you hit the nail on the head. though, i'm not exactly sure i agree with you that we "are hardly a Christian nation." at our roots, i believe we are a Christian nation. unfortunately, however, our fruit grows more and more rotten.

Yes, perhaps some of the founding Father were Christians, but what does it matter? Christianity will never be a top down religion. This only breed legalism. We could get everyone to obey all the laws in the world, but if that is all it was, everyone would still go to hell.

Do we need laws? Yes, do I want laws against abortion, etc.? Absolutely, but don't for a second confuse this with our mission as Christians. External obedience to the American law or God's law only will lead us to condemnation, see the book of Galatians.

Christians must have a much broader view of what is means to be a Christian in society if we are to really make an eternal impact.

Getting the right laws in place, or "taking back American for Christ" (barf) may have little to do with the heart and real life change.

z

Steve, what do you mean by "righteous foundation" and what is your goal with that?

z

Zach - it's indisputable this nation rests on a Judeo-Christian foundation. 27 of the 56 Founders had seminary degrees or were ordained. They understood the Great Commission to not just be about individual conversions but rather to go into all the world and make disciples of nations. They set this nation on a decent course quoting the Bible all the way along. It's not about a theocracy - I reject that. "Christian" nations worldwide are categorically better off - free and prosperous - than non-Christian nations. My goal is to obey the salt/light mandate. 30 senior leaders of YWAM just wrote a book saying the mandate of the church is to disciple nations. The word disciple means to follow after and those who hate God are quite successful getting this nation to follow that path. Somebody's values and morals will shape our nation and our future, the only question is whose.  My goal is to do what I can so make sure the time tested paths aren't thrown under the bus.

It's not about laws alone. THough laws do bring about some heart change - case in point- abortion. Things that are illegal are considered wrong, when they are legal people view them as right.

zach, you're missing a much broader, and much more important point. nobody is saying anything about legalism. not sure why you would so reflexively equate "Christian nation" with "legalism." that's your own inferrence, and not at all what i am saying.

study the word "federal" or "foedus." we are living under a covenant that our founders made with God. they beseeched Him to be the Supreme Judge of how we uphold that covenant. that covenant is our "righteous foundation."

i'm sure you're aware of how God feels about people keeping their covenants.

Steve,

I don't argue with that foundation of our country. I honestly have not studied it that much, so I will take you at your word, but I am more concerned about your view that that law can change hearts. As a pastor who preaches the Bible, you know as well as I do that this is not the case. The law simply teaches me that I am a sinner and will never measure up. Imposing right laws on people may help our society be more civil. I certainly agree with that, but it will never save anyone. As a point of emphasis, I would encourage anyone in my church (or yours) to focus less on top down structure of government (though this has it's place, especially if your job is to be a politician) and more on how actually people can get saved, through understanding the Gospel of Good News that sinners have a means to get right with God through the cross and resurrection of Jesus. This is the salt and light Jesus was talking about. You want to preserve society? Tell them about me, that is the only hope of real change. Adherence to the law will only produce self-righteousness, example #1 being the Pharisees.

LexRex,

The reason why I link "Christian nation" and "Legalism" is that that is the subtle message that is sent. "If we only could get people to behave rightly, then we'd all be much better off". The issue is not external behavior, but rather heart change. The Pharisees were great at external behavior and Jesus told them they had a one way ticket to hell.

I am not for a second saying that laws in our nation don't have their place. I hammer on abortion on my blog just about as much as anyone here, BUT I want to keep in mind that I don't believe any of this will save anyone. External obedience to laws of the Bible or America has zero to do with getting saved (again, see Galatians) and as a pastor I want to be known for the Gospel, not helping American return to a Christian nation, as if that could ever happen anyway. People need the Holy Spirit to live rightly, we can expect them to follow laws, sure, but don't expect any real change unless it is wrought by God through his Holy Spirit. This only can come through the Gospel.

I guess my main point is that if Christian leaders were more focused on the Gospel we would make WAY more traction than if we just sought to get right laws in place. On abortion, i'll take right laws, but on other issues, (like Christians being persecuted) I think we should calm down and expect it to happen while we rejoice in the fact that we are proved faithful if we endure it.

zach, thank you for the thoughtful response. i have no quarrel with what you said. though you waxed eloquently, you totally ignored my whole point about us living under a covenant.

You're losing me a little Zach - salt and light goes FAR FAR beyond sharing our personal faith in Jesus. The "gospel" isn't just the message of forgiveness and the sinners prayer. That's just the front door. Inside is freedom for the poor, the cpative, equality for class, gender, race; life for the least of these (the unborn). Listen to some of the messages linked at the right of this blog where I have gone around the state talking to pastors about how the gospel is bigger than the sinners prayer. In terms of legislating morality, and how laws do help change hearts… many women have told me they would have never had an abortion if it were not legal.

There is a false peace that something is ok when it is legal. In Mexico until a few years ago the populace was overwhelmingly prolife. Then 16 people snuck in abortion on demand and it's legal today and within a few years the nation hearts changed and hardened to the plight of the unborn.

I'm not talking about legalisms. But we are a nation of laws, and in part, this has kept us "good."

Lexrex has mentioned being a nation under Covenant a couple times. This is an extremely important point.

Lexrex,

The Bible's warnings about covenants have zero to do with our founding Fathers. The covenant in the OT was a unilateral covenant initiated by God alone. Abraham was not looking for God, God found him. It wasn't as if Abraham went to God and said, "God, here is what I want to do, you cool with that?" Then God gives him the stamp of approval and he moves forward with a stern warning to not break what he has vowed to God.

So with the founding Fathers, it's not as if God came down to them (like he did to Abraham and Moses) and told them, this is what they have to do. It was a totally different context. I am very thankful for what they did and very very thankful to live in this country, but please don't impose the Covenant that God made with this people in the OT with the USA. This would be a tragic error. It has been made over and over in the past and never produced much that was beneficial. We are not a theocracy and never will be. The "boarders" of Christianity now are simply Jesus. Come to him, not to a nation.

God doesn't have a special place in his heart for the USA any more than he does any other nation. That is the beauty of the Gospel. All nations will one day be united at the foot of the Lamb.

and pastor steve, i can tell you that had abortion been illegal when my ex-girlfriend and i visited planned parenthood years ago, i would have done all i could to save our baby.

as a young punk, i was still working out all this morality stuff, in regard to sex, abortion, etc. there were no clear-cut answers that i was aware of. but the law — i knew that it wrong to break the law. that's clear cut.

Steve,

I think we are talking past each other a bit here. For that I am apologize. Perhaps I am not being clear. I whole heartedly agree that the Gospel implies (not IS) much that we are to do. Eph. 2:8,9 has verse 10 following it. This is very important to remember. We are on the same page at this point I am sure.

But to assume that what Jesus meant when he said that we were to be salt and light was to make sure there were good laws for the people is to see Jesus has a massive failure since he didn't quite ever address the huge political problem of Roman domination over all the known world.

I don't doubt that women would have not had abortion if it was made illegal. This is why I advocate so loudly for abortion laws and think Obama's policies on abortion are about as anti-Christ as one could get. But just because a women doesn't have an abortion doesn't mean she believe the Gospel. Only the Gospel can produce the kind of "obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5) that God desires. This should be our focus.

You said:

"I'm not talking about legalisms. But we are a nation of laws, and in part, this has kept us "good.""

But if this is our emphasis primarily, we may keep everyone "good" and hell bound at the same time. This should not be the norm for us as pastors.

z

zach, is not marriage a covenant? if it is, then so is our declaration of independence/constitution. abraham lincoln even referred to the DOI/constitution as "a regular marriage."

and please stop inferring things that neither of has said. we are not for a theocracy. didn't claim God necessarily has a special place in His heart for USA. only in the respect that our founders made a pledge before God — a foedus pactum — judge us for the rectitude of our intentions.

"to judge us for the rectitude …." sorry.

LexRex,

I don't think you are for a theocracy, but you do sound like you think that if we could just get people to change their behavior, this would mean our job was done. Just get the right laws in place and then we can all go home as happy campers. If that is not what you believe, please correct me. I am open to it.

Yes, marriage is a covenant, but just don't try and equate it with God's covenant in the OT. There are many distinctions.

z

Zach - we have much in agreement I can tell. I'm about out of time on this for now but I will comment on the point about covenants. God is a covenant God - from the Adamic and Abrahamic Covenants all the way down to the covenant between a man and a woman. Every founding document and state constitution invokes his name in covenant fashion. In that sense we are a Covenant Nation, dear to the heart of God.

My buddy here on the Rez, Pastor Gabe Medicine Eagle hits this point hard when we travel and talk about this nation breaking over 400 covenants/treaties with natives. He says we'd be better off with God if we'd have wiped out the natives and not signed those Covenants - because in those Covenants, we've put ourselves under God and he holds us to a position that is greater than other nations who do not know his name.

Additionally, I happen to hold the view that America takes a very special place in God's eyes, has a prophetic destiny in God, but I'm not looking to sway you to conclusions I have made. More on that here only if you are interested… http://stevehickey.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/the-united-states-of-america-in-bible-prophecy/

zach, my goodness! when did i ever say or come close to implying, "but you do sound like you think that if we could just get people to change their behavior, this would mean our job was done. Just get the right laws in place and then we can all go home as happy campers"?

is it even worth my time to discuss this with you?

and you still evade the point about foedus pactum. it may not be on par with the adamic or noahide covenants, but it is a covenant nonentheless. and God expects the parties of the covenant to uphold it. that is why this is so important.

LexRex,

Do you think we should "take back America for Christ?"

z

I'll answer - then I gotta sign off. The language "take back America for Christ" really turns me off as well. But do you not agree if those who still believe in right/wrong/good/bad let go, America will be in the wrong hands - if it's not already?

So there IS a battle to "take America back" but it's not just the Church's battle though we are called to influence it.

I like the verbiage - "lead this nation" - and I find that congruent with the mandate to make disciples of nations. We need Godly leaders in this nation.

WHen the righteous rule the people rejoice, when the wicked rule the people groan. Prov. 29:2

And that isn't a plug for a theocracy, it's about people with good ideas and values prevailing in a democracy.

ANd, righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to to any people - Prov. 14:22

Righteousness goes beyond us having right relationships with God, it includes moral and civil righteousness. THe church in America is only concerned with individuals having a right relationship with God and sadly others have stepped in our absense and discipled the nation down a course that our parents and grandparents wouldn't have dreamed of. 

A preacher today can't call good good from his pulpit without being accused of a hate crime or fearing a 501c3 violation.

boy, you just want to argue don't you? i'll tell you what: when you fully address the covenant issue, i'll answer your question.

you know, i started out with a compliment for you. i completely agreed with your fist post. not sure how or why this devolved, so quickly.

LexRex,

Bro. I hate dumb blog comment section feuds, just as much as the next guy. Please don't read into my tone. If you love Jesus, I love you, so it doesn't have to be all defensive. What more do you want me to say about OT and Covenant?

z

this is soooo funny, dude. i never once asked you anything about the OT. stay with me, brother. my point is that we are living under a covenant. perhaps, it's a different distinction than the adamic and others, but it's a covenant, nonetheless.

and whether it's a covenant with noah, or a husband-and-wife, or a nation, God expects us to uphold it, does He not? and should we not do our best to abide by it?

i do love Jesus, by the way. thx.

Steve,

I don't believe the issue of "letting go" is how I would frame it. The issue is not, "do we stand up for justice?". The issue is how? I certainly think we should have Christian politicians working their butts off for good laws that bless the people. My only thought is that obedience to law that is not wrought by the power of the Holy Spirit can only take us so far. If we primarily emphasize the former, we'll never see real lasting change. We need to hold these in tension. I want laws against abortion just as much as the next person, but again, if we don't call people primarily to believe the Gospel, we just send people to hell who don't get abortions. Seems rather short sighted. But if people believe the Gospel, they won't get abortions, no matter what the law says. So I'll never vote for a pro-choice candidate, all the while knowing that even if the most righteous man is in power, we'll still have much much work to do.

z

LexRex,

No, he does not. Because we are NOT a Christian nation in the same way that Israel was a theocratic nation. God doesn't hold us accountable anymore based on anything other than Jesus. He taught us about the only Covenant that matters anymore, The New Covenant. So that is the only covenant that is binding in an official sense. What do you do with Jesus and the new Covenant in his blood? This is the question for us when it comes to Covenants today. Come to Jesus = blessing in the Deut 28 sense. Forsake Jesus = cursing in the Deut 28 sense. This has very little to do with adherence to external laws. So no, I reject the notion that God is holding our nation to some Covenant that we placed at his feet when our country was founded. We will reap what we sow for sure, but that is simply how God's judgment is delivered to any sinner or sinful structure.

The USA in no way will operate under the same type of blessings and curses (Deut. 28,29) Israel was held to. It is painful hermeneutics to attempt to link the two.

Does 2 Chronicles 7:14 apply to the USA? No. Whose land is that verse talking about? It's talking about Israel. There is no official Christian land anymore. Jesus is that land. Come to Jesus.

Steve,

I resonate with what you say. I'll take American and Obama any day over Iran because our system is more "righteous". But just be careful that in your fight for "rights" you don't eclipse the Gospel. The Gospel has little to do with our "rights" and everything to do with God's mercy. This should govern our tone and our emphasis. Remember, Jesus never sought to overthrow the Romans through political influence and neither did his followers (until Constantine). Just be careful. Your study of church history will show you that the mixture of politics and church is often a very dangerous endeavor. People who obey laws that are "righteous" will still go to hell. Pharisees, remember?

z

Zach - the Cross was a political punishment because Jesus was a political threat - the early church spoke in political defiance… Jesus is Lord, not Caesar. The Bible is very political. No time to spell that out here. I teach elsewhere that 71% of the Bible was written by civil rulers or is about government?

Agreed, the Gospel has little to do with our rights. It is all about his Kingdom coming from heaven to earth. It is not simply about us getting Jesus in our hearts so we can leave earth and go to heaven. Redemption includes this planet not just a few people on it. Heaven as we know it is temporary. We are coming back here, that's how the book ends. He will rule and reign here. And for now, his kingdom is to be like leaven that permeates the whole loaf of society.

I'm well-versed in church history - please site your examples of this dangerous mix of church and politics. I'll site this… after spending this summer in Europe reading a couple thousand pages of Reformation History, I agree with Bonhoeffer, had Zwingli been in Germany and not Luther, we wouldn't have had a holocaust four hundred years later. Luther only wanted to reform the church. Zwingli took the reformation to Swiss society. And 400 years of German LUTHERAN non-involvement in society created a church impotent to stand against Hitler.

Bonhoeffer said the church is not just called to tend the victims run over by the wheel, but we are called to jam a spoke in the wheel. I agree with that.

Steve,

I agree. Jesus is Lord = Caesar is not. Bold claim indeed.

But his Kindgom coming has little to do with our legal system in the USA. His kingdom (in the narrow sense) is his spiritual rule and reign in the hearts of his people. Matthew shows us this over and over again. His Kingdom will never be ushered in by having right laws. Right laws can help make things feel good, but do you honestly think his kingdom will come this way? So if his kingdom equals his spiritual reign, then don't people have to actually believe in Jesus and not just follow right laws to see his kingdom come?

In terms of the mix of church and politics equating to horror, would you not say that from Constantine to the Reformation the church was pretty much a mess that had lost the Gospel while it was completely fixated on power? I know that is broad, but would it not be generally true?

Please don't think that I am a fundie dispensationalist that thinks the earth is going to burn so we might as well just hole up in the attic and wait for Jesus to come back. I have a great love for the Kingdom and believe that we are to pray for his to come in this day he Jesus taught us to. I believe that Jesus is reigning now and look forward to the day when he will make all things right in the New Heavens and New Earth.

This conversation certainly needs nuance, since I will preach against abortion and if I was a Danish pastor in the 1940's when Hitler was on the march, I would certainly preach that my people should resist, BUT our primary job is to preach God's word and in God's word I see a story of redemption from Genesis to Revelation that has implications for our people now, and Acts will show us that the early church has very little to do with political reform, but wanted to see heart reform. This is true reformation. Political reformation is like a band aid on cancer. All the right structures, but perhaps not the right heart. If that is the case, we lose all.

Hear me on this. I am passionate about adoption. We adopted a little black girl from Alabama a year ago. Orphans need homes. I just preached on this a few weeks ago. The Gospel has implications for orphans and the church! But if all orphans get rescued and we lose the Gospel in this effort, we have lost all.

z

so zach, then God doesn't care if husband and wife keep their covenant, either, i guess, huh? so we can make promises, invite him into those promises, and break them at will?

that is a very shortsighted view of covenants. if you know anything about our nation's history, you'll know that covenant theology permeated our colonies' pulpits, and greatly influenced our political leaders.

you don't need to link our covenant to the blessings and curses of deuteronomy. don't put words in my mouth. but it is clear that, like marriage, our nation is bound by .covenant to uphold certain things, with God as our witness and guantor.

i am curious to find out why you think we should outlaw abortion. if we are not under a covenant, and fighting for such a change in the law has nothing to do with our mission as Christians, then why preach against it? isn't that a waste of time?

Re: "Both Newt Gingrich and Bill O'Reilly agree a Christian Anti-Defamation Commission is needed"

Since these two shady characters are both Judeo-Masonic Ziobot puppets, I wouldn't put much hope in any so-called "Christian" ADL spawned from their feeble loins.

These are Judas Goats, designed to lead Christians astray with distractions.

A suggestion: rather than vainly trusting in any media or political figures to achieve anything for the remnants of Christian civilization, I would rather expect these illuninries to … say … sign a manifetsto perhaps … something affirming that New Testament truths, such as that Christ is the only Way … something "Newt" or O'Reilly would blanch at supporting … "why that's antishemitic!" …

They answered,

“Our father is Abraham.” … “God is our Father; he is the only Father we have.”

Jesus said to them,

“If God were really your Father, you would love me, because I came from God and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority; God sent me. You don’t understand what I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. You belong to your father the devil, and you want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning and was against the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he shows what he is really like, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you don’t believe me.” … “you don’t accept what God says, because you don’t belong to God.”

http://brianakira.wordpress.com/zionism/

Marriage is a Cov. instituted by God, the US is not a nation instituted by God.

Covenants in the Bible are unilateral or ordained by him like marriage. People don't just lay a Covenant at God's feet.

A covenant in the Bible is defined as "a bond in blood sovereignly administered".

Covenant are always Biblically given by God, not give TO God as is the case with the founding fathers. Marriage is given to us by God, the agreement of the Fathers was not. No burning bush, no voice from heaven, no Upper Room.

The reason I hate abortion is because God hates murder. I will preach against it as an implication of the Gospel to care for the weak and poor since we were once weak and poor spiritually, but I think it has to flow from the Gospel, not some notion that the US will ever be a Christian nation. Having that law in place says nothing about who becomes a Christian and who does not. Very different issues.

Yes, the Covenant theology was there with the Fathers, but it was greatly misguided and based on bad hermeneutics. Those guys were not infallible. I know it was there. I can get you more documentation this if you like.

You said:
"you don't need to link our covenant to the blessings and curses of deuteronomy. don't put words in my mouth. but it is clear that, like marriage, our nation is bound by .covenant to uphold certain things, with God as our witness and guantor."

My friend, this is just flat wrong. The Fathers did not follow the Biblical pattern of God's initiation. Try and find one example in the Bible a time when people placed a covenant at God's feet and he accepted it. Correct me if you want, but I don't think you'll find it.

z

LexRex,

God will hold this nation accountable for it's sin simply because he is a God of justice, but that is far different than saying he will hold us accountable for our sin because of some special relationship that we have with him as a nation that is different from other nations due to some "covenant" made by the Fathers. That doesn't add up Biblically. I think I have demonstrated that. Does that make sense?

z

zach, i had to stop at your first sentence. God did, indeed, institute governments.

and so what if God hates abortion? why should you take that as a command to change our laws? you should just be concerned with peoples' hearts, shouldn't you? who cares what our laws say?

LexRex,

But can you demonstrate Biblically how his institution of government is synonymous with his Biblical covenants?

In terms of your second question, I believe that God does want righteous laws and since we live in a democracy we the right and honor to serve in the political process. This is a good thing for sure, unlike the citizens of Iran, etc.

But I have zero hope that having the right laws will ever usher in the Kingdom of God, so we should seek to make heart change primary.

I would state that my view should be viewed as a heirarchy with promoting the Gospel as primary and having right laws as secondary. As we promote right laws we have to always keep in mind (as I have said quite a bit alreay) that unbelievers adherence to laws is a good thing, but will never accomplish the Kingdom of God, and we should never promote to unbelievers that their adherence to external laws will bring them into the Kingdom of God. I'm not saying that you are implying this.

I resonate greatly with what MLK jr. wrote here:

" Now the other myth that gets around is the idea that legislation cannot really solve the problem and that it has no great role to play in this period of social change because you’ve got to change the heart and you can’t change the heart through legislation. You can’t legislate morals. The job must be done through education and religion.

Well, there’s half-truth involved here.

Certainly, if the problem is to be solved then in the final sense, hearts must be changed. Religion and education must play a great role in changing the heart.

But we must go on to say that while it may be true that morality cannot be legislated, behavior can be regulated.

It may be true that the law cannot change the heart but it can restrain the heartless.

It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me but it can keep him from lynching me and I think that is pretty important, also.

So there is a need for executive orders. There is a need for judicial decrees. There is a need for civil rights legislation on the local scale within states and on the national scale from the federal government."

Yes, Romans 13 says that gov. is there to restrain evil. Where it promotes evil is should be resisted, but this too is not always cut and dry.

That is why I care about our laws, while never holding much hope for what they can actually accomplish in the hearts of men.

Can you demonstrate Biblically why the USA is a unique nation in the sight of God, or how our Fathers formed a Biblical covenant? Do you reject my definition of Biblical covenant?

so you admit that God does, indeed, institute government?

and if you believe that he also instituted marriage, how would you demonstrate Biblically how his institution of marriage is synonymous with his Biblical covenants?

when you answer that, you'll have my answer to your question.

as a side note, i would remind you that we do not live in a democracy. we live in a republic.

i would agree with you that "having the right laws will ever usher in the Kingdom of God." no quarrel, there. that's not why we have laws. not sure why you keep asserting that. is steve saying something like that, that i'm not getting. because i've never said that. never even came close to implying it.

in following Romans 13, this is what i believe: that government is ordained by God; government officials are to be good ministers who represent God; we citizens must obey the laws, unless they run contrary to God's; we are a nation of laws, not of men; God gave government the power of the sword to punish wrongdoers and to commend the innocent; and we must pay taxes to whom it is due.

sorry, more to come. i have to take a break to make my son strawberry milk.

I see where you are going, so then are you willing to say that God is in a unique covenantal relationship with all governments of the world and not just the USA since Romans 13 says nothing (obviously) of all the different forms of gov. that the world has?

I think we are probably at an impasse. If you still think the USA as a political nation is in a unique relation to God because of the "covenants" of our founders, then there is probably nothing more that I could say beyond what I have already said. Thanks for the discussion, it was interesting.

z

by agreeing to the covenant, our founders — or, the governors on behalf of the governed — affirmed and accepted certain obligations. for us to disregard those obligations, in the face of our call upon God to be our witness and guarantor, certainly has special consequences for the U.S. that other nations, who did not apply a covenantal form of government, do not face.

it's much like a couple who have given, merely, their mutual agreement to live together and remain loyal vs. a couple who stand at an altar, pledging their fidelity to each other, inviting God into their marriage as a party to the covenant. cheating our your live-in girlfriend, with whom you made a promise, is one thing, but to cheat on your wife, with whom you've publicly agreed to love, is on a completely other level.

in that respect, that's how i think the U.S. is unique. i'm sure i'll think of more, but that's what i have for now.

Lexrex,

Again, there is no covenant with the US of A. The only covenant that we have is the New Covenant for Christians and this has nothing to do with geographic boundaries.

Again, remember the Biblical form. A biblical covenant is "a bond in blood sovereignly administered". God didn't give our Fathers some Covenant like he did for Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus. It's completely different and what our Fathers did by laying something on the feet of God, or dedicating something to God is very very different than all the other Biblical covenants. Can you address this for me?

z

Pastor Zach….With all due respect, I ask you to please consider checking out the website that Pastor Steve recommended, and read that, and from there go to Steve Collins' website to read his article about where America may be in Biblical prophecy. It will give you something to ponder if you're open to pondering.

http://stevehickey.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/the-united-states-of-america-in-bible-prophecy/

M&M

what is it, zach? there is only one covenant, in "the New Covenanant for Christians," or there are "many distinctions" of covenants, such marriage, which is a "covenant instituted by God?" (your words, not mine.)

Marriage is given by God for many different reasons (be fruitful and multiply, model the Gospel, etc), but this is far different than saying that a nation can lay a "covenant" at God's feet and then somehow be held to a similar standard as the nation of Israel.

How do you guys understand the book of Galatians and all that it says about Israel and Christians? That probably has a lot to do with this discussion.

So LexRex, do you acknowledge that my formulation of Covenants in the Bible is accurate? If not, can you give me examples that are different? I am here talking about official covenants that God has ordained, where he explicitly states that it's a covenant.

z

i can give you an example that is different, zach. you provided one: marriage.

M&M,

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

Here is one for you to consider:

http://heidelblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/covenant-theology-is-not-replacement-theology/

z

That is very different than saying God has a special covenantal relationship with the US of A.

z

marriage is, nonetheless a covenant, though — correct? in the same way, so is our DOI/constitution. special in the same way that a marriage covenant is.

I think we have been around this one already, but I'll say it again, no, I disagree. Marriage is given by God at the foundation of creation(Gen 2, Eph 5) and the USA was not (in a narrow sense, of course it was "given" under his overall sovereignty.) The founders gave themselves over to him (in a sense) but that has to be suspect as well when there were many there who were certainly not Christians, but even if they all were it wouldn't have mattered because that is not how a Biblical covenant works.

z

geez, zach. you can't have it both ways. one minute you say marriage is a covenant. the next minute, you say it isn't. give me your final answer: marriage is or isn't a covenant?

Is, but because it was given by God. I'm pretty sure I said that. Fit with the definition of Biblical covenant that i have repeated above a couple time. USA does not fit that definition and I don't think you have addressed why that definition is wrong.

z

okay, so marriage IS a covenant. that answers your question to me about whether covenants have to necessarily follow the formulation of covenants that you laid out. you asked for an example of one that doesn't follow your formulation — marriage is one.

you say it is a covenant, because it was given by God. so, too, was government given by God.

true in one sense, God doesn't have a special covenantal relationship with the U.S. and true in one sense, God doesn't have a special covenantal relationship with you and your wife.

however, what makes the U.S. special is that our founders consented with each other through a morally binding pact, inviting God to be the witness and guarantor. and they recognized that there would be godly judgment on how they upheld that pact.

same goes for your marriage. what makes it special, in God's eyes, is that you two consented with each other through a morally binding pact, inviting God to be the witness and guarantor.

Friend,

God has not authorized nations to make pacts with him like he has single men and women to make pacts with him in marriage. To assume this would be a huge leap of logic that does not follow. Rom. 13 doesn't apply either because that is simply a point that God is over gov. and uses gov. in a broad sense to punish evil, but we know that is a prinicple (not always the case) because that is not universally the case with all governments.

z

M&M -

I would recommend you thinking through these short articles as well as it pertains to Pastor Steve's article about the USA and Biblical Prophecy.

http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/the-church-israel-and-replacement-theology-part-i/

http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/the-church-israel-and-replacement-theology-part-ii/

http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/the-church-israel-and-replacement-theology-part-iii

LexRex,

Marriage is a covenant based on my definition because it is "sovereignly" administered. Just wanted to be clear on that.

z

Wow - this has sure continued. Can't engage it any longer but I have read the dialog. Some comments here have ended up in my spam folder so they should appear now and others didn't show up because they contained more than one link - so I had to fish those out also.

Zach, I left seminary 16 years ago with no theology of the land, no theology of nations and no theology of Covenant. I preached only what you are talking about — get Jesus in your heart. There is no verse though that says invite Jesus into your heart, yet curiously this is what most evangelicals would say is the "gospel" message. Granted, there are verses Christ-in-you verses and verses about the indwelling Holy Spirit so don't misunderstand me— personal conversion IS central to the gospel. But, wow, is it so much more than merely getting Jesus in your heart.

The Bible is all about the land, geo-political boundaries, etc. they still fight over it today. The Bible is all about nations and Covenant. The Bible ends with the separation of Sheep Nations from Goat Nations (Mt. 25:32).

I've taught Covenant extensively for years and especially as it relates to America and Native Americans. In many places I've listed the four things the Bible says defiles a land; 1) the shedding of innocent blood (please listen to my message// Their Blood Cries Out// if you think all this is just Old Testament stuff that is not bearing here in the age of the New Covenant - that is a deception and false teaching to put it bluntly), 2) broken covenants 3) immorality and 4) idolatry. God has an issue with our nation on all four accounts.

Mostly though I want to reiterate loud and clear - America IS a Covenant Nation as in the BIG C - and this Covenant is directly rooted in every Covenant mentioned in Genesis because America is primarily populated with blood descendants of Abraham. Thomas Jefferson was aware of this - he refered to America as "Israel" - as distinct from Judah/Jews. In the 15th Century, the Queen of Scotland traced her Royal family line all the way back to King David. The Abrahamic Covenant is that Abraham would become "a nation and a company of nations" and they would be innumerable at the end of the age.

Today there are over 100 "Christian" nations - God's promises are true and his Covenant with these people groups is eternal. Never did he say, "Oh, let's scratch that and make it about just getting Jesus in your heart." God's heart is adoption and he's all about grafting in people outside the Covenant and so this is hardly about race anymore. But it is about Covenant.

The Bible comes alive in relevance for today when we "Recognize" the true identity of nations. That's why I call what I'm talking about "Recognition Theology." Most evangelicals have no grasp of Bible history as it relates to the nations Israel and Judah. And when I say "Israel" I'm not talking about Jews. I'm talking about the ten northern tribes who went the way of Baal and assimilated into pagan cultures and supposedly disappeared.

Read Hosea 1:10-11 about US - people will think we are not Covenant People - and God will say, "Oh, Yes you are. That fact will be recognized and I will bring you all back together again at the end of the age." That's the jist of those two verses.

You can argue with me all day about marriage covenants verses the Abrahamic Covenant and it's way off my point - America is readily identifiable in Genesis 49.

Thanks for the chat - I'm signing off because I can't allocate any more time to it. Blessings!!

Steve,

Thanks for the chat. I have enjoyed it. It has certainly sharpened me. I think there are some serious disagreements in how we understand "rightly handling the word of truth" that are at the core here. I would submit that your understanding of how to interpret the OT for today is off base when it comes to the continued revelation of the NT. The very important thing is to understand how the NT sheds light on the OT.

The Fathers were not infallible and made horrible hermeneutical jumps in their assertion of our nation as a Covenant nation.

As Gal. 3, Eph. 2, Rom. 11 etc. show us, the only "blood descendants" of Abraham are those who place their faith and trust in Jesus. Jews who does this are his people and Gentiles who do this are grafted in as his people as well. I would submit that you may want to consider more how the NT shines a huge light on how to interpret the OT prophecies. You may call it "over-spiritualizing" but that is exactly what the apostles did in Acts 15:14-18, Romans 9:25-26 and other places.

I agree, we are at an impasse, but consider the links I have provided. They say it better than I could.

BTW - I too hate the language of "asking Jesus into your heart". I don't use it and I do believe that The Gospel has implications for our behavior, but those only apply to believers.

Just remember, the seed of Abraham as we see in Gal. 3 is all those who place their trust (Jew or Gentile) in Christ. This is the spiritual nation that God will deal with based on the New Covenant. Those who are not covered by the New Covenant will be cast aside as the goats.

z

You said:

"The Bible is all about the land, geo-political boundaries, etc. they still fight over it today"

Yes, and now this land is fulfilled in Jesus. The NT makes this plain. Jesus is the "rest" that the Jews longed for in the land. Hebrews makes this plain and now the "land" should be understood spiritually in Jesus. Place your faith and trust in Jesus and you will have "the land" for Jews and Gentiles.

This quote is helpful I think:

"The interpretation of the Abrahamic covenant which sees the promises necessitating the possession of physical Palestine by ethnic Jews fails to do justice to the spiritual understanding of the promises that Abraham himself had. As Christ told the Jews of his day, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad” (John 8:56). Abraham looked beyond the merely physical and placed his hope in the coming Messiah, and in God who would raise him from the dead. This assessment is borne out by a careful study of Abraham’s life. And that this understanding that Abraham had of the promise is essentially correct is made clear by New Testament teaching on the topic. Any interpretation of the Abrahamic covenant that misunderstands the scriptural teaching of what the promises signified, to whom they were made, and who could claim them as Abraham’s true children and heirs is not only wrong, but positively harmful. An interpretation that insists on claiming physical benefits for Israel on the basis of their ethnicity obscures the vast spiritual riches of the Abrahamic promises as fulfilled to Christ and to us who are in Christ; it minimizes the place of Christ as the one true Seed of Abraham and the one in whom are all promised blessings; and it conditions us to be looking for a crassly physical, not to mention false, eschatological hope in the coming of an ethnically Jewish millennial kingdom, instead of understanding and awaiting that blessed hope of all redemptive history, the great proclamation, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God” (Rev. 21:3). This is the hope of Abraham and all his true children, and the goal of all redemptive history."

http://pitchfordsramblings.com/2005/06/19/land-seed-and-blessing-in-the-abrahamic-covenant/

despite the drive-by final post from steve — come back, steve! — it was a good discussion, gentlemen. i haven't gotten this deep into the subject for several years. it was fun trying to recall all that i had learned during my studies, years ago. i am very much out of my league, with you two theologians.

i believe that sometimes God doesn't have a direct connection in covenants, as in the adamic or abrahamic, but is a witness, as in the marriage or nation covenant.

i think we're closer to agreement than you might think, vitamin z. you implied that there are different covenants of different distinctions. given more discussion, i think you might better understand my point that our DOI/constitution are one of those covenants of different distinctions.

would love to debate with you the question about rights, sometime. i think you mentioned the subject in your first post. i believe we are endowed with them, as proclaimed by the DOI, because we're created in God's image; flowing from our obligations to God. perhaps, another day.

Godspeed.

I would love to. You can email me if you want - zachnielsen7@gmail.com

I will be around since I have Steve's blog here in my RSS. Love the abortion fight, but make sure we lead with the Gospel as we do.

z

amen to leading with the Gospel message, in re abortion. i tried doing that in south dakota, during our state's attempt to ban abortion a few years ago. didn't make me very popular with some of my colleagues. (fyi, i was the ED of the state family policy council.)

To All,

It has come to my attention that an article of mine, http://www.stevenmcollins.com/html/usa_in_prophecy.html, was cited at this forum. In terms of the debate about the proper role of Christianity and the Bible in our nation's laws and culture, most Christians do not realize that the USA already is a "covenant" nation and that it coming under ever-greater judgment for violating that covenant. We Americans have not enjoyed our greatness, prosperity, etc. because of dumb luck or Yankee ingenuity. Our nation was founded as a direct fulfillment of prophecy in Genesis 48 that the Israelite tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim would become a very blessed "nation and company of nations" in the latter days because of God's promise to Abraham and his descendants. When the tribes of Israel split into the kingdoms of Israel and Judah soon after Solomon's death, they were rival nations and went into exile without ever merging back together. The Jews are the modern descendants of Judah, but the Israelites (the ten tribes) were prophesied to be scattered among the gentile nations (Daniel 9:7, Hosea 8:8) even as God promised to multiply their numbers exceedingly after their exile from the Promised Land (Hosea 1:10). In Jeremiah 51:5, God flatly promised that he would not forsake the ten tribes of "Israel." Genesis 49 and Revelation 7:4-8 confirm that the ten tribes will all be found among the nations on earth in the latter days. God gave us clues in Genesis 49 and other prophecies re: how to easily identify the Israelites in the latter days. My article above (and my more in-depth books on the subject) very specifically document the evidence that the USA began as (and is) the prophesied single great nation of Manasseh in the latter days (our Anglo-Saxon British "brother" nations are Ephraim). If Christianity realized that we Americans are already in a "covenant" relationship with God, we would realize why we are in such severe trouble today for breaking God's biblical laws. God hated the infant sacrifice rituals of Baal-worship in biblical times and he states he does not change (Malachi 3:6. Hebrews 13:8). God hates abortion (a pre-birth infant sacrifice ritual) as much today as he hated post-birth infant sacrifice rituals in biblical times. Murdering infants (i.e. human sacrifices) was one reason why God withdrew his blessing from ancient Israel and sent it into captivity. America increasingly risks Divine judgment for its national sins today. It is my belief that God is currently holding back Divine judgment on the USA due to the lives and prayers of those who still "fear him" in this nation.

If you think I'm the only one who sees the USA's linkage to the Israelite tribes, other Christian writers and some Orthodox Jews (www.britam.org) now see it as well. In my articles and books, I point out that in 1855, a Christian pastor gave an address to a joint-session of the US Congress to present the evidence that the USA was descended from ancient Israel. The USA really should know its national origins and Judeo-Christian heritage better because our national security and survival depends on our rediscovering it!