June 9, 2009
Tiller's killer would've been shot dead at CATG
For my non-local readership, CATG stands for Church at the Gate, the church that I pastor.
Having recently been chided for not denouncing Tiller's killing more decisively - meaning I didn't walk the streets in sackcloth/ashes (I did say it made me sick, sad, and that every life is valuable, including Tillers) –no matter, since my renouncement of Tiller's killing was not believed by all, I thought to express my sentiments in another way and initiate a conversation from a new angle on the topic of protecting judicially innocent human life.
It has taken some self-restraint to sit quiet while folks like me are blamed for Tiller's killing. (I don't remember Al Gore and his enviromentally whacked-out friends at the Sierra Club getting blamed for producing unibombers like Ted Kacsynski.) And no denouncement out of Obama of the Muslim who killed an American last week - I also noted the PC crowd didn't demand the Muslim clerics of this nation publicly repent for inciting this violence by preaching Jihad texts at American mosques on weekends. But I digress.
The title here - Tiller's killer would've been shot dead at CATG– though probably true, is meant only to be provocative. It's not an attempt to incite additional violence. Frankly, it's about deterring more violence. You have to read this slow and carefully to really appreciate the irony… I'm suggesting in this post that a pro-life zealot seeking to unlawfully murder a mass murderer in South Dakota's arguably most pro-life church would likely be shot dead on the spot. Scott Roeder is fortunate that Tiller attended the No-Regard-For-Innocent-Human-Life church he did because one of our security people would have shot back.
No need to challenge me on not being "100% pro-life", I weary of those who cannot see the obvious distinctions between the shedding of judicially innocent human blood and the shedding of judicially guilty human blood. And, there are the obvious distinctions between acts forbidden in Scripture - not leaving vengeance (retaliation, revenge) to the Lord - and, acts permitted in Scripture, self-defense and stopping the shedding of innocent blood in process. The same Jesus who said "turn the other cheek" (context… an eye for an eye is for societal retribution, not individual) also said "let him who has no sword, sell his garment and buy one."
Recently I read Shooting Back- a Christian view of the Bible and self-defense. The South African author used his pistol to shoot back and stop a small group of terrorists in what has become known as the St. James Church Massacre. Author Charl Van Wyk shot back and saved innocent lives. Some reading this know my previous connection to New Life Church in Colorado Springs which was victimized by a shooting last year. It was God's girl with a gun, a South Dakota gal who was volunteering on the security team that day who shot dead the troubled young man who shot people at YWAM base and New Life Church that day.
This is really a post on gun control. When Cain killed Abel, God didn't ban rocks and sticks, he banished the murderer. While President Obortion makes haste to stifle the First Amendment/free-speech rights of those who think all life is sacred and revoke our Second Amendment right to bear arms as well, some of us see history repeating itself. Interesting chart in the Shooting Back book on how gun control laws preceded every major genocide in the 20th century - from Ottoman Turkey in 1517, the Soviet Union from '23-'59, Nazi Germany '33-45, China, Uganda, Cambodia and Rwanda. The book pointed me to a gun control verse I'd never seen before in 1 Samuel 13:19-20, 22-33. To keep Israel from fighting back, the Philistines got rid of the blacksmiths… "now there was no blacksmith to be found throughout all of Israel: for the Philistines said, 'lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears." Israel had to resort to sharpening their ploughshares, mattocks, axes and sickles to protect themselves.
I do appreciate the post over at Madville Times today - Tiller's Killer, Scott Roeder, is no Dietrich Bonhoeffer. It's worth reading. Fortunate was I to study for three years under Dr. F. Burton Nelson, one of the world's leading Bonhoeffer scholars, a personal friend of the Bonhoeffer family, and because of that connection and encouragement I have spent many years since walking with Bonhoeffer as a theological companion. Though there are strong parallel's to note, the differences between Bonhoeffer and Roeder are equally enormous. The parallel's to John Brown are also worth considering.
I disagree with the quote at Madville that "the debate about abortion is not a war." Really when it comes to shed blood it doesn't matter whether someone issues a legal declaration to fire missiles and throw grenades or whether the legal declaration is far more precise using weapons like suctioned cannula's and forceps. The end result is the same. Really, the only thing we are debating here is how to justifiably fight back and how to reverse America's declaration of war/holocaust against innocent human life and end the killing. Far more shocking to moderns is killing in the sacred space of a "church" than in the most sacred place, the womb. God's Word is clear, it's wrong WHEREVER it happens to take place because life itself is sacred.
BREAKING NEWS: Tiller's abortion mill is closing permanently! I'm sure Planned Parenthood will set up a new chop shop ASAP.
Comments on Tiller's killer would've been shot dead at CATG »
Leslie Hanks @ 11:57 am
http://www.americanrighttolife.org/news/abortion-vigilantism-worksheet
Norris Hall @ 12:18 pm
Tiller was a baby killer
Baby killers must be put out of action
You can't just wait years for the law to change.
The fact that the Clinic where Tiller practice is going to be closed forever accomplished, with one bullet, what years of protests have been unable to achieve.
Tillers death should be a warning to all abortionists that they await the same fate if they do not stop their barbaric practices.
Who would hesitate to put a bullet in Hitler's head or Osama Bin Ladins? Who would hesitate kill someone who was threatening the lives of their children?
When you have the chance to put a killer out of his misery and no one else will do it, is it not your moral obligation to do the job.
Tiller is gone and his clinic is closed. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!
Bob Ellis @ 12:32 pm
Yes, it's hard to imagine George Tiller in ANY church, even more so one that takes God at His word and values human life. But if Tiller were to be found in one like CATG, his life would indeed be protected.
So many ironies surrounding this incident…
Dr. Patti @ 1:16 pm
How can any true Christian ever condone what happened to Dr. Tiller? Certainly not me because "there but for the grace of God go I" having been a former abortion doctor.
Several people called me when they heard of the killing. They were worried about my safety and understood it could have been me instead of Dr. Tiller and were horrified by the thought. They knew of my conversion, repentance and redemption. I'm grateful for the prayers of many people, including a dear nun, and that no one 'took me out' before God rescued me from the pit and set me on a high place. Perhaps Dr. Tiller's salvation was just around the corner…
anonymus @ 1:16 pm
norris- really? why oh why oh why did you have to post that? for a pro-life person to want anyone, including tiller, dead is disingenuous at best. tillers death is not "mission accomplished". it's a major setback to the pro-life movement. leftist, pro-abortion folk always try to depict their opponents as brainless, extremist religious ideologues, so as to marginalize them and their causes in the eyes of the voters (this is partly because most of them know that, when followed to the logical end, their agenda is something that will ruin this country. just look at obama's economic plan)
the end goal of the pro-life movement is not to kill off any opposition, but to win over the minds and convictions of the majority of those who oppose us, and make abortion illegal. i think that, one day, the vocal proponents of abortion will be remembered in the same category as those who supported slavery and the nazi's. before the abolition of slavery, those who supported slavery held enough of a majority in the united states to split it in half. but 150+ years later, virtually no one agrees with them. the same end is waiting for the pro-abortion people. it's a long road, and radical's like tiller's murderer set us in ways that will take months and years to reverse.
anonymus @ 1:17 pm
i meant they set us back in ways that will take months and years to reverse on that last sentence.
Steve @ 2:08 pm
Leslie - very interesting- I'll print the worksheet and read carefully. Thanks for the link
Bob- here's another irony. Even in this comment string - Norris v Anonymous - the pro-life community quickly and clearly throws cold water on one of the more zealous in our midst.
But, right here on this blog just last week we've had incitements to violence by "DoctorDefense/SoMG/Singing Zombie" and NO ONE from the i-love-abortion camp chimes in to tone him down. (Except perhaps Cory at Madville did say "be careful" once last week when the dialog was heading in dangerous ways. My theory on Cory is he's the one liberal in SD who knows in his heart of hearts that abortion is wrong.)
Dr. Patti - thanks! Yours is a powerful testimony and what what you say is right on the mark!
Militants Of All Stripes | South Dakota Humanist @ 3:06 pm
[…] blogger, Pastor Hickey, half heartedly denounced the killing to the dismay of some, his readers are rejoicing. June 9th, 2009 in Extremism, Humor | tags: cartoon, […]
Cory Allen Heidelberger @ 3:55 pm
So many things to think about…
1. I assume you will be tracking Norris's IP and referring him to the FBI for terrorist threats as well. You should.
2. The abortion fight is not war. That's the overheated rhetoric your side uses that encourages exactly the violence that Mohler and Bogart denounce in their discussion of Bonhoeffer.
3. "obvious distinctions between the shedding of judicially innocent human blood and the shedding of judicially guilty human blood" — the suspect in custody is not yet judicially guilty. He wouldn't have been judicially guilty in your narthex, even with the smoking gun in his hand.
4. What I know in my heart of hearts is that the political ban on abortion you seek is ineffective, unhealthy, and wrong. (I object to the placing of ideas in my heart as strongly as you, Pastor Steve, object to my placing of words in your mouth.)
5. And the big question: Would you have given sanctuary to Dr. Tiller at your church? Would you have permitted him to worship, usher, take communion, and be a full active member of the congregation? (I'm not at all certain what your answer will be: I am genuinely curious.)
p.s.: Were I the worshipping type, I would have difficulty attending a church staffed by armed guards. The siege mentality would get in the way of Christian faith, love, and charity. (There is no siege — again, the dangers of the war rhetoric.)
Steve @ 5:06 pm
Cory -
#1 - Hey, I got the posting an IP address thing from you. Can't find the post right this minute but you once posted the whereabouts of some lowlife who posted a comment on your blog you didn't like.
#3 - Irrelevant, one doesn't need a judge to say it's okay to stop a shooting in progress with lethal force. My point was that Tiller's killer would have perhaps faced lethal force in another setting.
#5 - Tiller would have been welcome to worship at CATG each weekend - I would have welcomed the opportunity to show him in a non-hostile setting what God's Word says about the shedding of innocent blood and the spiritual realities behind abortion. His family would have been loved however our love to him would have been tough. I would not have served him communion nor given him any sort of membership in good standing. I would have personally met with him to show him his grievous sin and he would have not been given any wiggleroom to justify it in our midst. Yes he would have been given "sanctuary" - that is the point of this post - I suspect his life would have been would have been safer at CATG than one of these churches that has no regard to the shedding of innocent blood.
If by "sanctuary" you mean would we have shielded him from what God says about this and dispensed a false grace that enabled him to sin all the more the answer is NO.
p.s. do you have trouble attending a major league baseball because of the armed guards that are present? Maybe you aren't the baseball type either. CATG also is protected by fire alarms and a lockdown security system for the kids in daycare during the day. Our high schools here in Sioux Falls have armed cops in them all day. The serpent even comes into the garden.
Cory Allen Heidelberger @ 7:27 am
#1: I know. And if Norris Hall posted threats like that on my blog and I could get his IP, I'd post and call the FBI in a second.
#3: O.K. Just a language check.
#5: My use of "sanctuary" means just the basics, that you'd let him in the door. Fair enough. However, you also make clear that he would not have been welcomed as a full participating member of your church. So to say he would have been safe at your church is a moot point, since a practicing Christian like Dr. Tiller would want to be able to worship in full, and he would not have been able to do that at your church. (Note I'm not saying your don't have the right to deny anyone communion or other participation opportunities: I would expect you to react the same way if I showed up on Sunday and said, "Hey! Pass the hooch and crackers.")
Curious: do you deny any other sinners communion? Men who beat their wives? Women who beat their children?
p.s.: I don't like going anywhere with armed guards around. I don't want to teach in a high school with armed guards.
Bill @ 12:58 pm
Tiller a "practicing Cristian"? That's like saying that I'm a "practicing woman". One can call an elephant mouse, but it aint one!
Amy @ 7:52 am
I'm glad to see some peaceful dialogue here. Thanks Cory. I agree with Prez Obama that the pro-abortion and pro-life sides will never agree, but your example of mature and open discussion is so refreshing after reading so much hate being spewed elsewhere on the interwebs. Thanks again.
Cory Allen Heidelberger @ 9:25 am
Bill, you can call him what you want, but the interesting question for me is whether you will let the man who calls himself a Christian come worship in your church.
Ted @ 8:17 am
Steve, show some class and please delete Norris Hall's comment before more people get hurt.